Breeding heifers…and more…
The other day some of us got into a discussion, via email, about breeding heifers. But as these things go, we wandered off topic quite a bit. When I signed off, I realized that there might be some thought-starters in our ramblings for readers of this blog and so I have reproduced it here with the permission of the participants.
Taking part were myself, and our two partners in Traditional Devon, Bill Walker and John Forelle, as well as two people whose counsel we frequently seek out: Bill Roberts of 12 Stones Grasslands Beef and Dr. Sue Beal, a holistic vet in Pennsylvania. The give-and-take began when I posted a video produced by one of our partners in England, Juliet Cleave. (If you haven’t seen it, scroll down to “It’s Showtime” below.)
Here’s how it went:
David: When you have six minutes, treat yourself to a fun video put together by one of our English friends and partners….Juliet Cleave.
She’s a Cornwall and Devon girl whose family goes way back….more than 100 years…raising Devon on the same land. She put together some old pictures from her farm with her herd today. I think Grandpa would be proud.
No point to this….you just deserve a break.
Bill R: Wow! There was a tremendous point to this. The progress in quality of cattle illustrated is dramatic. Those are phenomenal cattle on just grass and dispel the myth that Devon cannot be bred effectively until 24 months – an issue that has stalled them from popularity among commercial folks.
I believe your group importing these genetics could fulfill the hopes for Devon in America. Congratulations on your historically significant efforts.
David: A couple of thoughts on this…..
First, our heifers here at Thistle Hill are maturing very rapidly. So much so that at 1 year and 3 months Wooz has been lobbying me to breed them soon. Needless to say, while they seem big enough….I’m nervous about that.
Second, we were amazed at the recent improvement in Juliet’s herd in Cornwall…improvement I credit to the bull she had just purchased before our earlier visit…..a Millennium Falcon brother, the first bull we selected for our English effort!
But to burst the bubble just a bit: keep in mind English breeders bring their cows into sheds in the winter and onto straw bedding. And almost all feed what they call “nuts” in addition to hay. Nuts are a pelletized feed…..barley the main ingredient….but other things as well.
I think that being under cover….not getting wet….and with the warmth of the other animals….decent hay and the nuts….the cows in England continue to grow in the winter.
I appreciate you pointing this out though. I am going to monitor the situation with our heifers more closely. I hope you’re right that we may well be raising heifers that can breed more in line with commercial requirements. Wouldn’t that be a nice plus!
Bill R: Personally I believe to be commercially viable; we should push our heifers to grow as much as possible in the first year and a half. Ideally, the grass should be high enough brix to do it alone. If it is not, meeting their nutrient requirement with hay or even a touch of barley or oats is within reason. Being a purist and starving cattle is no virtue. 2 – 3 pounds of grain per day in the winter allows their rumen to function properly for forage and yet helps them get where they need to be.
When commercial producers have money borrowed to pay for cows, they cannot wait for the first calf for 36 months. They need a calf ASAP. Angus have been developed to breed at 14 – 15 months and calve by the time they reach 24 months. To enter in to the commercial market, Devon needs to be able to do the same.
Bill W: I have been listening and reading discussions for 30 years on when to breed heifers. I think it depends on your circumstances. There is certainly the argument that a commercial cattleman needs his cows to calve at 2 years and every year afterwards. There are purebred breeders that also think this works best for their situation.
I think it is important to make this decision after you have evaluated the heifer’s weight, age, and body condition. Also, for that particular heifer you need to consider what season she is going to calve in your environment. We (importing English genetics for Traditional Devon) are in a unique situation. If we let our heifers calve when they are 3 years old we will have a better mama and a better calf. I expect the elite animals to continue production late into their teens. My goal is 19 years and we have achieved this with some of our genetics. This would give a solid 14 to 16 calves during the lifetime of a mama cow.
David: Right at the moment I can only say we’re having no trouble growing these heifers….though we are using alfalfa hay along with mixed orchard grass hay.
Bill R: We have bred some of our heifers at 16 and 17 months. They calve just fine but because we were totally on poor to medium fair grass, they did not complete growing until their second calf was raised. Some did not breed back for their second calf until they gained in condition.
Two points:
1) Some Devon grow more rapidly and can be bred early more effectively (the general rule of thumb is a heifer is big enough to breed at 750 #’s whatever age that happens)
2) The quality of forage and overall nutrient availability makes a big difference in growth rate.
David: There’s a trade-off of course between early calving and calving mortality. I think most of the breeders I know calve at 3. We have had much more success calving an older heifer.
Obviously all this is a judgment call depending on the appearance of the heifer.
Sue: This is an interesting meander.
The housing of the cattle over winter is a big thing – then they are not using energy to keep warm, but to grow. We know that, depending on temperature, wind, mud, wetness, etc., their energy requirement will increase by 30-50plus% out in the weather. I can find those numbers again for you if you want.
David echoes what I was going to write, though:
“Obviously all this is a judgment call depending on the appearance of the heifer”.
Certainly if she is starting to fat at a younger age, we need to get her doing something. Or eat her. If she is not, then perhaps wait to impregnate.
Alternately – impregnate regardless of tendency to early fat – and sort it out on the other end of things: those young mommas that do well with that “early” breeding and use them to build that type of herd. The latter may make more sense than the former, really.
There is no reason that we cannot select – on grass and outside – young stock that turn fat earlier…… and generate a subsection of animals that will breed w/ the industry. (Ditto w/ the other approach, too.)
I still have to think, though, at the overall calf/cow count when they are bred a little later….. And perhaps that doesn’t matter for industry? And perhaps it won’t be so when we are working with that group of early breeding and successfully down the road animals. In fact, that’ll probably be the case – they’ll breed early, be good mommas in that and subsequent pregnancies, rebreed, and calve many times.
And that statement (more lifetime calves w/ later breeding) did not take into consideration anything but linear time age of the animal – not condition or fatness at age x or feed or…..
John: Is the “two year rule” unique in your experience to Devon? If it is such an impediment to spreading Devon we should be trying to experiment to find ways around it rather than slavishly follow it. Since we will have a relatively large number of full Cashtiller/Jaunty sisters, why not breed half of them (a cross-section, not necessarily the best ones) as yearlings and see if there is a difference?
David: No. But I would say most breeders fall all along a line from breeding at 16 months up to just over two years. There are those who have an arbitrary weight, such as 750 pounds; others want a certain percentage of mature weight, for instance two-thirds. So if the cow is 900 pounds, they want to breed the heifer at 600. We start looking at the heifer a about two and generally breed within the next few months.
Sue: To breed at some arbitrary weight should depend on the weight of the adult cow. For example, if her mature weight is 850, then waiting until 750 may be relatively too long….. if her mature weight is 1500,……. Degree of fat is perhaps a better assessment.
And also remember, regardless of weight, they don’t have full mouths until six years or so – so we are breeding developmental “babies” in a sense.
Bill W: I do not believe we should consider feeding grain to our cattle as an option. Alfalfa is certainly forage that can be used to supplement. There is a growing movement that is concerned about GMOs (genetically modified organisms). As Round-up ready alfalfa becomes more available, we may have to address this issue.
I believe it is important for us to be totally and impeccably forage-based. If someone wants to call us a purist, so be it.
Bill R: Just in case I am maligned for being for grain feeding, I am not; quite the reverse. However, cattle country is one step away from disaster conditions. There will be some compromises made this year on individual farms and ranches or they will be hauled in by the Animal Nazi’s for animal abuse.
David: The trouble is that with the help of our government, Big Ag is eradicating the labeling difference and eventually the public perception that there’s any difference. I already hear customers say they can now buy grass fed beef at the market….and of course it is not “grass fed”, certainly not “grass finished” by our definition. You can now even grow a cow in confinement and call it grass fed…. I think we’ve lost this battle forever which means our customer base is going to be those meat customers we can actually engage in serious conversation or those really serious “foodies” who seek us out.
I agree with you Bill about the protocol for raising our Traditional Devon; grass period….but I appreciate Bill Roberts’ thoughts on this issue. For the larger Devon marketing question, I had always focused on the Devon bull….this is the first time I realized the replacement heifer is part of our problem reaching the commercial industry.
Bill R: I will guarantee you those cattle grazing mature pasture get far more than 3 pounds of seed heads per day. The Omega 3 profile does not change until the concentrate percent of ration is far higher than nature has to offer under normal conditions.
However, you are correct that perception is what matters. I still believe that ”forage natural” in the commercial sector will evolve of necessity due to environmental conditions. The purist consumer may not want it, however the number of people who like the taste of grain fed but might be open to a healthier choice outnumber the grass purist consumers 10,000 to one.
David: I really don’t think the people who like grain fed have any idea what they taste. I haven’t had a steak in a restaurant in years that was not well-seasoned before it ever reached my plate. More than that, the tenderizing has made steaks so mushy I really would prefer a tough one to what I’ve been served. And just as steak in the supermarket is colored…I’ll bet you it is “flavored” too.
However….I don’t expect to make any converts with this argument. As I said, the government has now made labeling irrelevant. We’ve lost the fight….except where we can directly encounter a customer. For some time, “local” has been a far more powerful marketing word for us than grass fed.
Sue: Before we get all tied up in the debate about whether animals on grass seed are actually getting grain, it’s important to consider a couple of things (and I say this after working on some grass fed standards for PCO…..
We need to differentiate carbohydrates as starch vs. sugar. And we need to look at the amount of carbohydrate in grass seed head – vs. that in grains.
I have table values somewhere from that discussion but trust me that the carbs in grass are waaaaaaaaaaay less than in grain, and tend to be sugar based.
And we need to look at how we want Devon in the market:
As terminal crosses?
As pure bred stock?
Take a look at what they can do now – and use that ability to place them where they are most useful.
David: I think Sue has brought us back to an important point…there may be many roles for Devon. For our Traditional Devon imports from England, we are focused on finding and maintaining breed purity. If we want to serve other markets….then I guess that is what each of us decides for our individual herds. As I said to Bill Roberts at the beginning of this exchange: the Devon in England have been diluted by cross-breeding….and by feeding grain. Their winter housing adds still another dimension. Their summer grass is also far superior to ours’.
Right now….I’m for doing what we reasonably can to improve our grass….we will seed in some Italian rye, as Jim Gerrish recommends, to see if it is economically worth it in our operation….and trust to Billy Bob Jim’s minerals to supply the rest. This winter, we’re definitely seeing a kick from the alfalfa hay, in addition to our cafeteria mineral program, so we will continue that with the young ones.
Sue: Again, we can select for those traits we want in our particular herd/functional group.
And no one says we have to dance to anyone else’s music – though it’s nice to be able to make a profit as we waltz to our own tune!
8 Comments
Eric Smith
Thanks for posting this discussion…, it’s like having a fresh SGF article to read. I am in no position experience-wise to have a whole lot to say about the timing of breeding heifers but my thoughts turned right away to “what does nature do?” Are our cattle so unnatural as to not work it out? Are our practices and resources so poor that the cattle are helpless? Maybe it IS a compromise and that is what “stewardship” is all about. But I think Nature’s example certainly must be the guiding light.
Edward Taylor
This is a fascinating conversation- thank you for sharing it. Would it be possible to supply in a future posting some references (e.g. increased energy usage depending on climatic conditions- I live in Vermont and so this is not a theoretical issue). I’d like to learn more.
Perhaps a partial solution for appealing to the commercial sector, and yet breeding at a viable age, is to vertically scale into the commercial sector so as to be large enough to support a brand (e.g. as Hardwick Beef has done.) I’m told that grass finishing is an art as well as a science . Is there an economically viable model to support a large grass finishing concern in other regions that pulls in cattle from true grass fed operations?
David
Reactions from Bill Roberts:
“To comment on both thoughtful comments to the blog:
We work with top grass fed cattle producers coast to coast. Several run grass cow/calf operations in the thousands and several finish fats in the multiple hundreds. Other than genetic potential, the three most common issues concerning limitations of grass cattle to grow and breed early or finish early are
1) Total nutrients available for the daily grazing
2) Adequate energy to meet animal requirements in the volume consumed daily
3) Mineralization
1 – is obvious. There needs to be enough total feed in the area the animal can cover in a day. This is more limited in the west arid regions and can be an issue. However, it is often an issue in other areas due to overgrazing, poor diversity, poor soil fertility etc.
2 – energy is a key issue. The person commenting from Vermont has a very high maintenance energy requirement in the cattle during the winter. When you consider stockpile or hay can run from 2 brix to in the 20’s, the energy per pound consumed varies greatly. Poor forage cause grass cattle to go backward in the winter because of not enough energy. Some grasses do not supply adequate energy even in the growing stage in monocultures. Energy is more often than not the limiting factor. To get a heifer to breed at 14 to 15 months (which incidentally is what they will do in a continuing herd environment – ask Ian Mitchell-Innes) they have to have the genetic capability and the energy to grow to that maturity. Quality forage as mob grazing builds and faster moves allow the cattle to get that energy.
3 – proper mineralization to build the endocrine system that “drives the the train” is absolutely key as well. A poor endocrine system will cause late breeding and non-breeding heifers as much as anything.
“Once all these factors are addressed and in alignment, the performance of the animal will tell the producer if they can successfully breed early or not. The purist with capital may say whenever heifers breed routinely efficiently and can calve and be in condition to rebreed efficiently, that is the age I will breed and be happy. The commercial man who has money borrowed from the bank to buy bred heifers who will want the animals that can breed early in his environment and generate a return rapidly enough to meet his cash flow requirement. That is why animals who do not effectively breed early efficiently are rarely used in large scale operations. Right or wrong, short sighted or not, economics are a huge part of management decisions.”
Bill Roberts
Edward Taylor
I want to thank you once again for prompting this lively discussion “Breeding heifers… and more”. I’ve learned much from this discussion- I very much liked Eric Smith’s questions and I was very appreciative of Bill Robert’s reply to us: he anticipated questions I didn’t know I had and then he answered them.
But I’m still a little perplexed on the big picture. Is it the case that larger birth weights have been sought by breeders of other breeds of cattle for- in part- the ability to calve earlier? If so, won’t this end up costing in terms of live and unassisted birth rates (thus costing money)? Or perhaps one can get the ability to calve earlier within any given frame score providing, as Mr. Roberts points out, the nutrition and care is right. So it comes down to a matter of feeding and genetics.
Let me ask directly: can one have a moderate frame score animal with low birth weight that matures to breeding age quickly (w/o expensive inputs)?
It also seems to me that management intensive grazing, with its lower inputs and higher efficiency, may allow a later breeding time and still maintain profitability. Thus can one frame the problem as being one that isn’t primarily with the cows but with the management techniques of the breeder?
Finally, how is time to finishing weight correlated, if at all, to birth weight and breeding weight of the dam?
Red Ruby Heifer
In the Kew Herd, & throughout most of British Devons, we aim for a moderate birthweight (or even small) for easy calving, but combined with the bloodlines that provide (a) growthy genetics & (b) a milky line in the dam = calf pops out then grows like a bushfire! But this you already know, the interesting part is that we have just sold a senior Devon bull into a large continental breed farm (400 Charolais & Belgium Blue cows) as they were despairing at the number of caesarians they were doing (10% last calving season). By chance, the (human) daughter of the establishment, was so taken up with the Devon breed, she’s gone out & bought some Devon heifers!
Remember also that the Devon breed has a slightly shorter gestation period than a lot of other breeds – which is of course a bonus when using the Devon bull as a terminal sire (cross breeding): calf pops out ‘early’ before it gets too big.
Management (feeding) also a major factor: unborn calf growth is 75% during last 2 months of gestation – so must ensure cow has intake to produce healthy calf plus that all important colostrium (we call it ‘buzzy milk’), yet be in working condition in herself for calving. Marvellous: another tightrope the stockman has to walk! Nothing new here either, but those minerals have to be balanced (if you’ve had a wet year, have the trace elements been leached out of the forage/hay?)
So here’s my answer to your question: YES! The Devon is all about a moderate framed cow, in moderate condition, producing low birthweight calves that rapidly grow to maturity on low inputs. This is the description of the Devon breed in a nutshell (re You Tube video ‘you can have it all with the Devon’!)
Management (& choice of bloodlines) is the name of the game. In the UK, EBVs (Estimated Breeding Values from Breedplan or Signet) are the recognised way of evaluating birth weights/growth rates etc, while some folk do their own recording without being affiliated to an independant program. The Devon breed society in each country will have a prefered scheme for these schemes, so as many members as possible use the same scheme as the figures are most meaningful when compared to maximum headage within a breed (doesn’t relate to figures in another breed).
David
The depth of the thought processes manifested in Edward’s comment are excellent and far reaching. I will try to answer with a broad brush that has specifics within it.
First, in the case of registered Devon and other breeds, there are breed standards that members of the associations have established as “right for the breed.” From a seed stock perspective, staying true to type is important and is an easy road map to follow. Simply select for cattle that fit the standard model in all phases of the growth cycle.
Commercial producers are the mavericks who want to tailor-make their breeding program to what their unique circumstances need based on known factors. For instance: a steer will usually finish within about 100 pounds of the cow’s mature weight in good flesh. That being a known, one can tailor their fat cattle production finished weight by the cows they come from. The bull does contribute but the rule seems to generally apply. So end weights can be predictable.
Now comes the nuances of our discussion. How are birth weight and growth rate predicted to get to the end weight and how can it be manipulated through management practices? Aside from breed standards, the commercial producers rule of thumb is that “a live calf is better than a dead one.” Therefore, large commercial breeders use EPD’s on the bulls used to predict birth weight which is a highly heritable trait. They use bulls that produce light calves on heifers and young cows, hence the name “heifer bulls.” And they use bulls that produce heavier calves to produce calves that are “jump started” on growth from easy calving older cows. Hence the name, “terminal bulls.” While this is common practice in commercial herds, it can cause havoc in purebred herds. What if a breeder buys a purebred bull that has genetics to produce 95 pound calves consistently and he does not know it? Trouble is on the way. That is why with our Devons, we only propagate bulls that consistently produce 55 to 75 pound calves that then grow like weeds once they hit the ground. Finding those cattle takes time, selection and culling ruthlessly. Those kind of bulls are in most breeds but need identifying.
We used to be on the Board of the Great Western Beef expo in Sterling, Colorado. It was a feedlot and carcass evaluation center for a multiplicity of breeds wanting to demonstrate their breed’s ability in those areas. We worked with several Salers breeders. Those cattle would be born at very light weights and come out shaped like a missile. They were easy calvers par excellance. Once on the ground, they grew at an amazing rate. That model is available to emulate in most breeds through selection.
Once a live calf is on the ground, selecting for growth rate becomes the breeder’s mission. That growth rate has to be aligned with their management style, i.e. conventional grain fed, grass fed, etc.. Cattle that respond to the conditions they are in will manifest as right for their environment by being average, below average or above average compared to their herd mates in the same environment. Good growthy cattle that grow rapidly, get to breeding weight rapidly, breed effectively and keep gaining and growing (if the feed is adequate in quantity and quality) even through pregnancy are optimal cattle. These kind of cattle that can truly perform on typical forages across the US are not in oversupply. Endeavors like those of the Brits I met who select based on perennial rye grass environments and folks like the Traditional Devon folks do in the US, are improving the opportunity to access those kind of cattle. As these kind of cattle become more abundant and we get the soils and forages better than most chemically dependent US soils can produce right now, we will see this all fall into place.
Finally, yes – if through MIG or mob grazing one’s cost of production are less, it stands to reason one can wait and breed heifers at 24 months and
“be easier on them” for longevity. Most commercial producers do not have that option. Their banker is waiting for his money. So in cattle country in the west, they calve in April/May and then those replacement heifers have to breed back in July/August of the following year at around 15 months of age to stay in the program. Heifers are generally preg checked in the fall and culled from the herd if they did not conceive. Economics do not allow a free loader to go through the winter on high priced hay if she is not going to produce a return on investment in the following spring.
Red Ruby Heifer
Don’t forget the old adage: there’s as much variance within a breed as between breeds. Hence the importance of selecting correct strains for your system/personal preference (type).
Over here in the UK, the Devon breed is working hard to get away from an ‘old fashioned’ image, e.g. stuck in a time warp somewhere round 1960s/’70s, when the breed was presumed not to progress with ‘commercialism’: large carcasses from European breeds that were more economic to process for the growing supermarket outlets.
What goes round, comes round though. Folk over here have eventually remembered (halliluliah!): COST OF PRODUCTION! The cost of corn inputs to finish/fatten those gert-big frames ain’t economic in hard times. Hence the British farmers’ interest in forage systems. There is a niche market in Britain for quality eating beef (native breed finished on grass), but this isn’t the mainstream market. Maybe different in The States as you’re a nation of beef-eaters?
Anyhow, my mission is to get Devons back into mainstream British agriculture; which means shouting about their attributes as terminal sires…
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